AN INTRODUCTION TO THE REAL ELECTION OF GRACE

Nov. 10, 2010
I have written on many posts at this website about what truly is the election of grace, or God’s elect. Instead of having people who are or aren’t too familiar with this biblical term searching all around my site for it, I’ll lay it out for everyone here.

Most people who know the term “God’s elect” or “election of grace” misunderstand it, and nearly all teachers do as well. Many teachers, disappointing to say, would rather have their flock feel good about themselves than teach the truth and challenge their flocks. Telling their flocks that God chose them makes them feel good and probably increases money coming into the church.

Romans 8 and 11 explains the election of grace in the greatest detail out of the Bible. Early on in chapter 11, Paul reiterates a conversation between Elijah and God where God said “I have reserved to myself 7000 men who have not bowed their knee to Ba’al in Israel”. How does God reserve Himself a person? Think of where God is and think how does He reserve a person from His point of view? Paul said immediately after reiterating that conversation that there is a remnant of the election of grace. Elijah lived 900 years or so before Paul, so how could there be a remnant if the seven thousand in 1st Kings 20:15 was the same seven thousand God reserved? Then Paul said that those people that were chosen to be the election of grace weren’t chosen for any work they have done in their lifetime, or else it wouldn’t be by grace they were chosen. Grace is given by God and it calls all who have answered, but as Jesus said “For many are called, but few are chosen.” Not all who are called answer, so grace sometimes is wasted. Jesus gave many parables which shows people who are called fail. Accepting the call is the first work. Being faithful is a good work. Being unfaithful a bad work. So how could those people show faith in this life and still be not just called by grace, but chosen by it? All Christians are called by grace, but not all that have been called have answered. Even the few who are chosen have been called, only they are forced at some point in their lives to answer it. They might be able to put it off for a while, but that phone will keep ringing until it is answered.

Paul said that everyone outside the election of grace has the spirit of slumber; eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear for understanding to this day. Everyone is allowed to build their faith, but God has given all but the election of grace a ceiling. There aren’t many that have reached the ceiling God has given them. If one is willing to diligently seek Him, ask themselves questions they might not want to ask and be open to answers that go against their denomination’s or their very own doctrine, God just might raise their ceiling. That takes incredible diligence and patience to have that happen.

Back to the spirit of slumber, Christian teachers will say that Christians don’t have the spirit of slumber. Really? Whose faith on Earth right now is greater than the people who were there when Jesus healed and spoke? Can these teachers say their faith is greater than someone who had a missing arm but after Jesus touched them it grew full to the fingers? Is their faith greater than a relative of a blind person Jesus gave sight to? I know and you know the answer to that. What is my point to all this? How did Jesus speak to those people? Those very same people that were healed, saw Him heal, that saw Jesus divide among hundreds a few fishes and loaves of bread- how did He speak to them? Did He speak to them openly? No, He spoke to them in parables. Why did Jesus speak to those same people in parables? The disciples asked Him that very question. His answer: they didn’t have eyes and ears for understanding so He had to speak to them in parables. Isn’t that exactly what is written about the spirit of slumber? Who can account their faith greater than the one who had their leprosy cleansed, but yet Jesus spoke to the former leper in parables.

As for being chosen in the election of grace for nothing in this life, God told Jeremiah in 1:5 “I knew you before you were in the womb. Before you were out of your mother’s belly I sanctified you and ordained you a prophet to the nations.” What did Jeremiah do in his life to be chosen to be a prophet? Nothing. Did God choose Jeremiah at random? Obviously not. God knew all of us before, as our souls are much older than our bodies. The words “know” and “knew” also meant “accept”, as it was in this case and in Romans 8. There must have been a time and way for Jeremiah to prove his worth in order for him to be chosen to be a prophet in this life. What Paul meant when he said “there is also a remnant according to the election of grace” is that there were some of the election of grace dispersed throughout this age, but God has reserved 7000 of them. For when? The final generation.

There are seven thousand of the election of grace alive right now. I am one of them. There is no question in my mind about it, and my understanding proves it. The election of grace have a unique understanding not only of God’s word, but God’s doctrine. Not the doctrine of men. The doctrine of men can’t explain why when Jesus said on the cross “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” wasn’t a sin. If it was Jesus’ moment of doubt and pain, then how come that’s not a sin? Responses I’ve heard: “Well Jesus wasn’t able to sin because He was Jesus.” My reply: “Then why did Jesus go to the desert to be specfically tempted by Satan. If Jesus didn’t have the ability to sin, then where would the temptation come from?” The answer to the question why what Jesus said on the cross wasn’t a sin is because He wasn’t speaking to God. “Yeah, but He said “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?” What does Psalm 22:1 begin with? “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?” Maybe He was simply quoting the first part of Psalm 22:1. What does verse 16 say? “For dogs have compassed Me; the assembly of the wicked have inclosed Me; they pierced My hands and My feet.” They pierced My hands and My feet?! Isn’t that how Jesus died? When were the Psalms written? Around 1000BC. Jesus was quoting Psalm 22:1 to point out to those that had eyes and ears that this Psalm was predicting how He would die, proving He was the Christ. Is your lightbulb flashing? Here is some wisdom, Psalm 22:1 began the way it did because it was meant to be repeated by Christ when He was on the cross, which should make you ask “why wasn’t that a sin?” How many of you truly asked that question before now? Why isn’t this common knowledge teaching by any Christian? No atheist or believer in any other religion can explain it away. The translation is correct. The original Hebrew word there for “pierced” is “aw-ree” which does mean “pierced”. Psalms were written around 1000BC. Every Christian should have Psalm 22 etched in their hearts, minds, and souls but they don’t. Why don’t they? Look at the next Psalm. Psalm 23, “The Lord is my shepherd…” The most famous psalm of them all. That should be a beacon to what Jesus said on the cross. It’s been there the whole time. Why haven’t people been able to read Psalm 22 and connect that to Christ?

Questions about doctrine and other things you might have can be sent anywhere really, but this page would be a great place. I have many blogs that deal with challenging men’s doctrine about God’s word. I won’t cheat you by giving you some half-witted explanation that some others will that even they don’t buy. If you feel you are learning things here, then spread the word. God bless you on your quest to find God’s ceiling. Those of you that either know you are one of the election of grace or think you might be, you better get busy. If you are behind on your knowledge of the Word, then you will fail those people you are responsible for when they need you the most. Can you contend with one that wants to tear the Word down, but has legitimate questions about the Word and the doctrine you hold dear? It’s coming fast.

68 comments on “AN INTRODUCTION TO THE REAL ELECTION OF GRACE

  1. c taylor says:

    Hi Jesse
    Thanks for what you have written. I have been confirmed into the Anglican church here in England. However I cannot understand that they take bits out of the written word of the bible and change it. They give complicated reasons to simple facts and deny creation. The ministers think that the people from that age were uneducated and unable to know things like our age. I am being approached everywhere by people wanting me to think like them. But I don’t. I do however hear your voice and I agree especially with the above. I think about psalm 22 and 23 alot. I have suffered since this began all my friends have deserted me and sometimes I wish I hadn’t started this. But I know it’s for my own good and I can feel it coming too. I forgive them all and pray for them. But the astonishing thing is they really are blind and deaf – they don’t even want to hear. What can I do?
    Mrs T.
    Mrs T.

    • Mr. Z. says:

      Hey wonderful lady, all you can do is plant a seed. You can’t make it grow, only God can. You are doing good work. Try not to let it drive people away, that will help no one, especially the lost. My wife and I both got the truth at the same time about a year or so ago, so that leads me to believe that the final generation is indeed here, we are of the election and we certainly have a job to do. I will tell you, my entire family has always treated me like dirt and I never knew why, even before my eyes and ears were opened. My wife experienced the same thing and we both still do. You are definitely not alone, there just aren’t many of us. Peace to you, Jesus is our King.

  2. Jesse Norman II says:

    Hello again, Mrs. T. Glad to see you’re back. I have written a little more than once a month now, as you can see 🙂

    I find it kind of funny that your ministers think that those people weren’t as smart as we are nowadays. Consider most of these people knew at least two languages, since Greek was a uniform language in that area in those days. There were also the different dialects of Hebrew such as Aramaic that all knew. Just look at the words used in the Bible. Sure they’re the Word of God, but they had to be understood. Not only are the words pretty advanced, but the hidden points God was making take a pretty keen intellect to understand what He was truly saying. Then there were the parables Jesus spoke by. People had to be smart enough to understand the parables. I bet if Jesus spoke to these ministers in new parables, they’d be wondering “what does that mean?” I guess that Socrates and Plato, who lived before then, weren’t as sophisticated with words as your ministers. Pass that along to them and see what reaction they give you.

    As far as what can you do to help the blind and deaf, nothing. The sheep know the voice of the shepherd. Right now, their shepherds haven’t the wisdom it takes to lead them to the right places. The blind leading the blind. None of them can explain that Jesus spoke against five of the seven churches of Christ. The two he doesn’t speak against don’t exist yet, as they are written in Revelation. At some point late in this generation, there will really be only two denominations. There will be the church of Smyrna and the synagogue of Satan. Many that will be part of the synagogue of Satan are Christians right now, since that will partly come from a former church of Christ. The church of Ephesus will be part of that synagogue of Satan. For now, it’s best you stay the course. Eventually, people will turn to people like you for wisdom. If you know the doctrine, they’ll start seeing that you know it in time. I suppose you can ask questions about their doctrine and know the word enough to contend with their foolish answers. If I knew some of those points of contention, I could help you ask questions they won’t be able to answer. God bless.

  3. Philip says:

    If you’re a ‘prophet’, you are a false prophet.

    Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matthew 7:15

    • Mr. Z. says:

      Problem here Philip, he isn’t prophesying anything, he’s pointing out the actual Word.
      That Matthew 7:15 is referring to those who follow traditions of man and make void the word of God. If you forget everything you ever were told or taught in sunday school and just read the words of the Bible KJV, slowly…it actually says something entirely different than what man has taught us our whole life. Peace. Yeshua is our King.

  4. Jesse Norman II says:

    That’s some accusation, Philip, especially when you didn’t provide one example. What would a false prophet do? Wouldn’t a false prophet play pattycake with the word? I don’t. Would a false prophet lead people to strengthen their belief that Christ was crucified for our creation’s sins and so we can have everlasting life? Would a false prophet prove Psalm 22 was written about Christ 1000 years before He lived, thus proving He was the Christ? Wouldn’t a false prophet numb the Word to lead people away from what is written and towards accepting things that aren’t written? I don’t. If you can read my posts and call me a false prophet, then you should look at yourself and see where you are being led to. Either give me an example and contend with me, or mosey on over somewhere else.

  5. Mrs T says:

    Hi Jesse, I am not too good on quoting passages of the bible so I looked up Jeremiah 1:5 and Romans 11:6 and I had already marked them. Also Psalm 22 is too. So I believe I must be on the same page as you. Therefore I would definitely say you are not a ‘wolf in sheeps clothing’. You know I have asked all the so called people of God that I know about these passages and they don’t find them important or they meddle with the words. They do not take it for what I think it is -just plain fact. But like I mentioned earlier I find it scary really hair raising. I feel very worried and have to be careful about what I say too. I really feel that the holy ghost has opened my eyes John 16:13. I feel a responsibility to do the right thing and I’m not sure what that is.

  6. Philip says:

    Paul was speaking plainly talking about the Jews of his time or season. The ‘7000’ were those Jews during his time that God had revealed Himself to.
    You contradict yourself by endorsing the doctrine of grace which is not a work. Faith in God (according to the DOG) is not a work, but a gift.
    “And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6

    “As for being chosen in the election of grace for nothing in this life, God told Jeremiah in 1:5 “I knew you before you were in the womb. Before you were out of your mother’s belly I sanctified you and ordained you a prophet to the nations.” What did Jeremiah do in his life to be chosen to be a prophet? Nothing. Did God choose Jeremiah at random? Obviously not. God knew all of us before, as our souls are much older than our bodies.”
    God knows all things and is not subject to time and knows all things, even before they happen. This is how God knew us before we were formed. It was His will. Also, our souls come from Him. It has nothing to do with the ‘age’ of our souls. You are implying that we did something before we were formed in our mother’s womb and that is a contradiction to the DOG, because it would be a work.
    Faith is a gift and not a work.

    • Mr. Z. says:

      Philip, you must first understand the Earth age that the catabole occurred in. It was the first Earth age. That is when the 7000 were chosen. Even the 12 disciples of Jesus said they wished they could live during the last generation so they could witness. Anyway, Peace. Jesus, Yeshuah Messiah is our King.

  7. Philip says:

    False prophets do the work of Satan by twisting the truth and causing confusion.

    “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9

    If you remember how God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, it is commonly ignored that 6 times before this happened, God tried to get Pharaoh to repent. There is a place in the life of the unbeliever where God will no longer try to speak to them. It’s called being ‘reprobate’. It isn’t that God gives up on us, but God, knowing all things, knows those will never come to a place of repentance.
    When we were made in God’s image, we were given free-will. We have a choice.
    I had to take God out of the Box. There are just some things about God that we won’t know until we reach the other side. I agree that we are saved by grace, but there’s a place in there that is incomprehensible to even the elect. God has not revealed all things to us.
    “The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law” (Deut. 29: 29).

  8. Jesse Norman II says:

    Thanks for your vote of confidence, Mrs. T. I won’t fail you. You said ” I feel a responsibility to do the right thing and I’m not sure what that is.” My advice is to just keep walking. You will.

  9. Liam13 says:

    Very good job. Do you study with, or have you ever studied with, or via, Dr. Arnold Murray/Dennis Murray and/or The Shepherds Chapel out of Gravette, AR?

    • Jesse Norman II says:

      Thank you.I knew you studied with Pastor Murray. I used to, but as I said in the other post you commented on, he gets too many things wrong. He says there won’t be a rapture, which I basically teach as well because I don’t want people to expect something that isn’t coming for them. Only God’s elect will be taken. It does say the church of Philadelphia won’t be here for the hour of temptation. Those are the elect. The days are shortened for the elect only. God will send His angels to gather His elect. The days are shortened for the elect by five months. The last five months will be the hour of temptation.

      • Greg says:

        Jesse, I’m new to your site and am facinated, However you completely lost me on this post. I thought you didn’t believe in the rapture.

      • Jesse Norman II says:

        For most I do not. I wrote that there was no rapture so that Christians would not think it was coming for them. Only for the elect’s sake shall the days be shortened. There are things that are written about the elect not being here that I cannot ignore, but Christians should know that the rapture isn’t coming for them. In time they’ll know.

      • Mr. Z. says:

        You are pretty awesome, but be careful because the rapture theory wasn’t even uttered until Margaret Mcdonald dreamed about it, saying it was an evil presence that told her about it, and the churches just latched onto it. The Bible says God is against those that teach his children to fly to save their souls. You are right there. Just about there…let’s pray together you and me right now. Jesus bring us insight, knowledge and truth immediately…in your holy precious name Jesus Christ our King we pray, AMEN. Peace, Yeshua is our Savior indeed.

      • Mr. Z. says:

        Jesse, also please I beg you to think of the fact that IF the elect are GONE, WHO of the elect is witnessing against the Anti-Christ?…We must be here to do our job. Please hear this. Jesus is our Holy King forever. AMEN.

      • Jesse Norman says:

        Yes, I will be here to give witness against the Antichrist, then Satan after him. At some point, that job will be finished. The church of Philadelphia will be kept from the hour of temptation with the angels gathering them together with the sound of a trumpet. Both of these things are written. Also, Satan is not the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I urge you to read the book of Enoch- the same Enoch God took in Genesis 5. He describes seeing the tree of knowledge in heaven after man sinned to keep it away from them. Thanks for encouraging my readers. God bless.

  10. Liam13 says:

    Rapture…The anti-Christ will come before Jesus’s return. God will not take His church/those that believe in Him and in Jesus Christ, out of here before the Anti-Christ arrives. The Anti-Christ will claim to be God.

  11. E. Quave says:

    Ezekiel 13:20 as one of the proofs of no rapture? Boy, you got me on that one. I’m new to your blog, having discovered it by accident. I really enjoyed your predictions on the upcoming presidential election (since they’re the same conclusions I have come to). Back to Ezek 13:20–point me to where in your blog you have previously explained all this. I’m really enjoying this. I have only recently run into someone else who says there’s no rapture before Christ comes, and it’s something I had never thought of before. Thanks

    • Jesse Norman II says:

      It’s hard to list them by memory. One was called “Will There Be A Rapture”, I believe. I have written that only the elect will be taken and documented why I believe this and when it will happen. I do tell people there won’t be a rapture so people won’t be expecting something that isn’t coming for them. It is written though that the days will be shortened for the elect’s sake and the angels will gather the elect with the sound of a trumpet. Then you have Revelation 10:7 and add it with 11:12, the number being 7000, then that is how I know the elect will be taken. The mystery of God being finished is the realization of His existence. All will give glory to God when they are taken. I know it says “killed”, but the number being 7000 and everything added up with it has me confident of my assertion. People aren’t going to all praise God at the death of 7000 people. Once they are taken with five months left, the mystery of God will be finished. Even the elect will go through most of the tribulation. I thank you kindly.

  12. E. Quave says:

    But what has Ezek 13:20 got to do with it? Whenever I’ve read that it just appeared to be a condemnation of women seeing false visions or practicing divination, as it says in 13:23. Thanks.

    • Jesse Norman II says:

      Women were specifically mentioned in 17-18, but this is a prophecy against all false prophets, listing those who make them fly. How God will tear the flock away from them is people will realize there is no rapture for them and their teachers lied to them so they go elsewhere. Many OT prophecies seem specific to one thing or event, but really is applicable in other ways and time. That verse isn’t the only thing I’ve ever brought up. The strongest point I’ve made is the sounding of the last trump (the removal of the mystery of God) and when it is. If before anything happens, millions of Christians and only Christians suddenly vanish, what would be left of the mystery?

  13. E. Quave says:

    OK, found it…..Thanks

  14. E. Quave says:

    Since you are interested in the most accurate translation of the Word possible, here is something that I found very interesting. I have no earthly idea who this is producing this, and have no way of verifying the examples given, but they seem to make much more sense than what we have in the KJV or NASV. The need to use precisely “Y’shua” instead of thy salvation is a toss up, if you ask me. Hope you have time to look at this:
    http://webmaila.juno.com/webmail/new/5?session_redirect=true&userinfo=6089a7ce742169573d50fb3a33fddc72&count=1352898707&cf=SP2&randid=793858335

  15. Leonie says:

    Hello I believe I’m one of the elect

    • Jesse Norman says:

      We shall see. You will find out surely one day if you are or not. For now walk the path and see where it leads. If you aren’t, you can still be of great help to the Lord and those around you.

  16. Carla says:

    Dear Mr. Phillip; I have been a Christian for 49 years and have set my heart to studying the Word of God through most of that 49 years. I am not afraid to study, with strenuous, serious research and faithful prayer what others believe about the Bible because the Lord tells us to; 2 Ti. 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    I have just began reading through Mr. Norman’s blogs today so I will not give my opinion on what I agree with or don’t agree with but I would like to address a couple of your statements that seem to be of great importance to you. The first is the gyrating discussion of “Faith vs. Works”; John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe (have faith) on him whom he hath sent. Concerning Pharaoh and so many like him that the Lord used to further His purpose, (Exd 10:1; Deu 2:30-31 “Sihon king of Heshbon; Judas, etc), this shows plainly that some people are put on this Earth for particular purposes – as the Word says in 2 Ti. 2:19-20 But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his, …In a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and earthenware, and some for noble use, some for ignoble.

    I do believe the teaching in the main denominations today on Chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis is sadly lacking. The common teaching is based on fear and tradition. It doesn’t take much to pick up the Strong’s Concordance and see a lot of truths have been left out for some reason. I also know that as Mr. Norman says, “It is said that it is the sounding of the last trump that removes the mystery of God…what would be left of the mystery? Who’s going to say then “well we still don’t know for sure”? (end of quote). This shows that none of us can be 100% perfect in our understanding in all things concerning “God’s plan – the Mystery” UNTIL “all mystery of God” has been removed (1 Cor. 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known). The wonderful truth we can hold for certain is, John 3:16.

  17. Carla says:

    Mr. Norman, Have you spoken anywhere about the metaphoric meaning verses the literal meaning of the two trees in the garden of Eden? These trees being symbolic of people (Jeremiah 17:7-8) rather than literally meaning trees. Do you believe the tree in (Gen. 2:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die) is Satan? And that Satan invented evil as he was the first one to sin (Ezekiel 28:14-15). And the tree of Life is Holy Spirit? Because Adam and Eve sinned they were not allowed to eat of the Tree of Life (Holy Spirit). If you have discussed these topics could you tell me where. If you have not commented on these topics could you please tell me your opinion on these matters? Thank you.

    • Jesse Norman says:

      I don’t get into metaphorical or allegorical meanings unless I know for sure they are such. The ones you pointed out I am not making the connection. The tree of knowledge was in the garden and was compared to other trees bearing fruit. Satan would not be the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

      In “The Difference Between Lucifer and Satan” is where I explained a lot. I did put maybe elsewhere that someone was destined to eat of the tree of knowledge at some point, which is why God created it to begin with. I think I got to that in “God’s Tolerance in the Old Testament”. Why do you feel the tree of life is the Holy Spirit? In Revelation it is described as a tangible thing.

      2/13/14 According to the book of Enoch both trees were definitely literal

    • Mr. Z. says:

      Carla, you are correct, Satan was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and Christ is the tree of life. You are not alone. You are correctly dividing the Word. Peace. Jesus is our King.

  18. carla says:

    I read a lot of your posts yesterday so forgive me if I have misconstrued something you said or didn’t say. Please feel free to correct me if I “put words in your mouth”. From now on, let me use the word allegory rather than metaphoric. Please know that I am not here to argue with you about any of what you teach. I am here study.

    You asked my; “Why do you feel the tree of life is the Holy Spirit? In Revelation it is described as a tangible thing.” (end of quote). I am not saying that I fully believe the tree of life in the garden IS the Holy Spirit though the Lord does describe Himself in many “eatable” forms…manna, bread, a lamb (especially for the Passover), as well as in other allegorical ways…a lamb, light, water, door, shepherd, truth, way, and…life – (tree of life?)…

    In regards to my question, you replied; “The tree of knowledge was in the garden and was compared to other trees bearing fruit. Satan would not be the tree of knowledge of good and evil.” (end of quote). My question is, why did God specifically reference these two trees in a very significant way compared to the other trees in the garden?” There are several places in the Bible where “tangible” things are later referred to a non-tangible things, and visa versa.,,especially beginning in the 1st and 2nd chapters of Genesis. But in regards to other places in the Bible – The Lord says we are to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood. Do we literally “eat His flesh and drink His blood”? John 6:48-57 I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna (a tangible thing) in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread (allegory?) which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world…Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him…” ALSO as seen in, Matt. 4:4… It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Can “words” sustain us in a physical (tangible) way – providing the nutrients for our body as tangible food would? Thus, the difference between something “tangible”…ie. bread…compared to something allegorical…ie. the word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    At first read the “serpent” in the book of Genesis is also described as a tangible thing but upon further study we find the serpent to be used in an allegorical way. Also, considering the difference between the cultural times of the Old Testament and now, they would in no way discuss “sex” in such an open way as we do today. I believe the Word of God is literal. I do believe that it states the literal when it is so very important to be “literal”. But I also know the laws and restraints or morality that were placed on the people of that time period – especially when the Old Testament books were written. Some things were explained in language that was acceptable to the peoples of the time period, otherwise it would have been so offensive for them to listen to the person explaining the “events”, that they would have had no choice but to stone that person as a heretic (or worse). Also, we must consider that the writers of that day and time explained things in words of the time period they lived in – using the only words they knew or had experience with. For example; the wheel within the wheel (Ezekiel 1: 1-28); Elijah’s chariot of fire (2 Kings 2:11; Jacob’s ladder (Gen 28:11-12); Jacob wrestling with “a man” (Gen 31: 24-28); The “men” that appeared to Abraham as he sat outside his tent (Gen. 18 & 19); Moses cloud by day and fire by night (Exd. 13:21); and, of course, all the events that occur in the book of Revelation that are too numerous to name here.

    I will continue reading your posts, especially the ones you mentioned; “The Difference Between Lucifer and Satan“ and “God’s Tolerance in the Old Testament”. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions.

    • Jesse Norman says:

      I know there are allegorical references with some of these words, but the tree of life will be in a certain place as is written. What two trees are you talking about? What further study shows the serpent was not a physical thing? John twice in Revelation pointed to Satan as being “that old serpent”. What was he referring to?

    • Jesse Norman says:

      Also the Bible wasn’t as squeemish as you put it forth to be.

  19. carla says:

    Truly, one of my goals is to understand the teaching on “those that followed Helel in the rebellion” and those that didn’t. Also, how do we know who are the “elect”. And…what is the difference between the “elect” and those who are considered the “election of grace?” I have asked this question often to others but I have never been given a “straight forward” answer. Most importantly, how do we know if we were one of the “angels” that followed Helel in the rebellion or if we stood with God? If possible, can you give me a clear, to the point answer – at least to that last question.

    • Jesse Norman says:

      None of our creation were angels who followed Helel or God. If our creation were angels, then we should have known better. The judgement for angels has already been done in a permanent way. The election of grace and God’s elect (outside of God’s elect race) are the same thing. If someone is of the elect, they will know it at some point. It will be inescapable.

    • Mr. Z. says:

      Hi Carla, perhaps this will help. We are (none of us) angels, but children of God. The angels are never born of woman to this particular Earth age we are experiencing now and never will be born of the womb. The angels that followed Satan are being held in bondage as we speak until the moment when the archangel is given the key to the bottomless pit and opens it. And at the same time we see Satan being pulled from behind Christ (where he is being held in chains by Michael), and cast down onto the Earth. That is the sixth trump. If you know that Satan (who appears as the lamb but speaks as the dragon) = (looks like Jesus but speaks twisted scripture) comes before the true Messiah, then you have the seal of God in your forehead (or brain) it has been given to you to know that (knowledge given to you by God himself). We thank him for that knowledge. That knowledge is the seal in your forehead. The seal in your hand would be that you do the work of God and not the work of a false Church. Consider the fact that the WHOLE world will follow the beast except for this meager 7000 elect. Consider the fact and you will realize that any church with more than 7000 members is a false church along with a bunch of small churches since the elect aren’t ALL in one single place on the Earth. You are on the right page and Jesus is our King. Peace.

  20. carla says:

    Mr. Norman, Did my responses to your above questions to me as well as the further questions I asked you get moved elsewhere or are they too long for this forum? Should I move to a different forum to repost my answers and questions? This may be a shorter, more to the point response to the above question you asked me, “Why do you feel the tree of life is the Holy Spirit? In Revelation it is described as a tangible thing.” (end of quote). We can use this “tree” in the scriptures as a comparison… Rom 11:24 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who [are] natural [branches], be grafted into their own olive tree?

    • carla says:

      Sorry, for some reason my last two posts were not showing up – until I posted my final post. So, along with my last post I have probably impinged upon your time enough for now and will ask no further questions until you have had time to respond to my questions as well as the many other questions you have received. Until then I will continue to peruse your many subjects looking for other answers to questions I have. Again, thank you.

      • Jesse Norman says:

        Sorry, I’ve been busy. I only have time to approve the comments now. I’ll read and reply sometime in the next day or so.

  21. Mr. Z. says:

    Hey Phil, at the catabole, a third of Gods children followed Satan, a third stepped aside and a third fought for God. It is out of the the final 3rd that the 7 thousand are chosen. At the end of this Earth age at the the 6th trump, Satan will look like Jesus Christ (disguised of course), standing in Jerusalem telling the whole world to bow before him. The 7000 out of all the billions of people there that day will be the only ones refusing to bow. They, (I included) will stand and refuse to bow because they have the foreknowledge that when the 7th trump comes we will all be instantly transformed into our spiritual bodies. If Jesus is on the Mount Zion and you are in the flesh, its actually Satan in disguise. Pinch yourself when you get there to be sure, if you feel it…STAND UP.
    Jesus warns when the desolation of abomination stands in the Holy Place proclaiming to be God, that it isn’t actually Jesus himself, but the deceiver, Jesus will arrive at the 7th trump. Satan is here for the 6th trump, 6th vial, and 6th seal…666 respectively…Jesus Christ our actual Prince of Peace comes at the 7th trump, 7th seal, and 7th vial…777 respectively. Stay chaste and don’t be found with child when the good man comes home from his long trip. Peace. Jesus is our King.

  22. Mr. Z. says:

    Should anyone have a question – I feel the spirit of God (after I prayed for an opportunity to work in the vineyard) is moving me to help you find answers. I accidentally stumbled upon this site when I googled to see if anyone else was being treated like dirt who also had the truth. Never found what I was first looking for, but this is way better if I can share knowledge and truth of the Word of God. It would be about time I got to do some work on a larger scale. I OWE God. Jesus is our King. Peace

    • Leonie says:

      Hello I have ? How do you stop them from controling you when you ware things people have given you or you eat cursed foods

      • Jesse Norman says:

        Sorry, but I’m not understanding your question fully. How do you stop who from controlling you and what food is cursed?

  23. Keith Vinsen Sanner says:

    Thank you for the Truth!!!Hard to find these days.

  24. Keith Vinsen Sanner says:

    Shepherds chapel .com Teaches this Truth also.in Gravette Arkansas

  25. Leonie says:

    Demons and witchs can control you if you ware clothing or jewelry that is given to you by others (gifts and such) and some foods junk food refined food ,take out foods

    • Jesse Norman says:

      Whatever curse comes upon you, a simple prayer will suffice. No curse is beyond God’s power.

  26. Keith Vinsen Sanner says:

    Leviticus chapter 11 gives us the food laws.

  27. Keith Vinsen Sanner says:

    God never changes.

    • Jesse Norman says:

      The apostles had a big discussion about what to do with the Gentile Christians and whether or not they should be made to be like Jews. They agreed upon the proposal given by James written in Acts 15:20 which says “But that we write to them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.” Paul also said that all meat is fine if it is received with thanksgiving (1st Timothy 4:4). These things are clear. By the way, I never suggested God changes.

  28. Leonie says:

    Not talking about animals talking about sugar and white flour and tap water all things man made that is tainted

  29. ed says:

    I think the only trouble would be, is that Paul is a kenites himself.

    • Jesse Norman says:

      Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin. This is the last comment by anybody critical of Paul that I will approve. It’s a shame that recently I have had two delusional viewers come and besmirch Paul who couldn’t have endured one day in his shoes. No one went through more to spread the Gospel than Paul. What have you done? Obviously not much because you would have to be quite lost to say Paul was a Kenite.

      • ed says:

        “When Jesus was alive, He spoke about the scribes and Pharisees being hypocrites. Do you think maybe Jesus was speaking directly to the Kenites? When Jesus had the chance to go free, which was not hHis preordained destiny, it was the Kenite scribes and Pharisees that helped to get the crowd shouting “crucify Him!” while desiring for the release of the criminal Barrabas. Enmity. Who could convince a crowd to be so hateful but the Kenite? ” The above is a quote from your article, my question is, are all pharisees Kenites?

      • ed says:

        If Paul being a Pharisee is not a sign of him being a Kenites, why do Christ and Paul have opposing teachings? As I have outlined in the article I have shown you before?

      • Jesse Norman says:

        I didn’t look at your article. I purposely edited it out of your comment because I would not endorse such nonsense. Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin. Pharisees were not a tribe, but one of two groups that were the religious hierarchy in Israel. There were many Pharisees that were Kenites because Kenites are attracted to power.

        The teachings of Jesus and Paul were not different. The only difference was that Jesus did not come to condemn anyone. I am not interested in debating how their teachings differed or not because the idea of it is silly.

      • ed says:

        Here is an example:
        14 For the whole Law is summed up in one commandment: “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.” – Galatians 5:14 (PAUL’s)

        37 Jesus answered, ” “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and the most important commandment. 39 The second most important commandment is like it: “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’

        40 The whole Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets depend on these two commandments.” – Matthew 22:36-40 (Christ’s)

        One of them is wrong, which do you choose?
        I could accept PAUL’s words if he had chosen instead the most important command.

      • Jesse Norman says:

        Paul was referring to the law dealing with men’s relationship to other men, which the other verses give context to. You are going to point out one verse to me, void of any context of the point he was making, and I am supposed to be enlightened?

        You and I must have read two different sets of epistles written by Paul, because I could have swore he wrote over and over and over and over again that one can only find salvation through faith that Jesus Christ is Lord, but then again I am not trying to impress myself by finding out what I can come up with that might foment some fascinating debate.

        Any of those who wish to make Paul out to be some villain, I wonder how many days of walking in his shoes it would take before you find the first razor to slit your wrists with. This discussion is over. Find another site or forum that might find this to be food for thought.

      • ed says:

        I rest my case you made your choice.

      • Jesse Norman says:

        I did before you even wrote me.

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